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 | Blogs > yonganzl > Discovery > 你会和立场不同的人交友吗?Will you make friends with people who have different standpoints? |
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5/3/2008 4:54 am |
这里有一篇文章，Tibet & China---what will be ?。里面的whiteminkey资料说他是一个加拿大人。在他的留言里，他提到西藏被入侵的事。看来西方还真有不少人认为西藏是被入侵的。
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5/3/2008 11:10 am |
Oasis, 不奇怪。就像很多西方人认为我们被共产党洗脑了一样，他们也被他们的政府洗了脑。他们总是用他们的观点来看待中国的一切。我个人认为与他们争论这些问题没有任何意义。再加上一些亲西方文化或对中国有抱怨的中国面孔的人的添油加醋，这些老外会认为他们比你更了解中国，因为在他们看来，你们在中国的人是根本不知道事情真相的，因为你们没有西方人所谓的自由。 Swallow your pride and turn a day of frustration into a day of enlightenment!
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5/4/2008 1:09 am |
KQRBNP, 中国好不容易能够走出过去如此的贫穷落后，取得今天的成就，实在不简单。想象一下当西zang从中国分裂出去，得益的会是谁。当中国内乱，我们会得到什么好处？ 当我看到有些西方人接二连三地发表一些分裂中国、破坏中国和平稳定的贴和留言，我是无论如何也不能再装聋扮哑、无动于衷了。我觉得我要让更多的中国人知道一些西方人的真面目。 我们中的一些可能听闻一些西方人怎么歪曲事实，现在就有这样的西方人在这个网站上摆在大家的眼前。大家认清楚这个叫whiteminkey的西方人。除了他以外，还有一些西方的白人和黑人。我恐怕这样的人为数巨多。 也许大家会说这些西方人对中国人没有影响。我恐怕不是这样的。 我之前和whiteminkey也有过不少的友好的对话交流，但后来发现我们之间的立场严重对立，我感到失望和难过。我想，如果有些夫妻结婚前没有将对方认清楚，婚后才发现他们之间原来有如此对立的立场，不知道他们还能不能和睦相处下去。如果一些中国女性嫁给了老外，婚后才发现对方其实是一些支持ZD、乐于看到中国四分五裂回到军阀时代好让八国联军再侵略中国一次的伪君子，不知道那些中国女性会怎么想。 我现在知道西方确实有那么些伪君子支持ZD，唯恐中国不乱，而我希望那些想有异国恋的中国女性能够对此加以考虑，在婚前了解清楚对方，须知要深入地认识清楚一个人有时候不是那么容易的。
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5/4/2008 4:17 am |
Certainly, when it comes to friendship, I have no problem with a diverse range of political orientations, beliefs, morals and values. I know many people tend to shy away from the left side of the political spectrum, where I'm firmly located, but I find it's better to simply avoid debating politics with those people, than to reject them as friends. Similarly, I'm an atheist, but my best friend is a practicing Christian. We simply choose to leave most discussions of theology out of our conversations, and by that means, we have been best friends for 23 years. On the other hand, I don't shy away from letting my friends know where I stand on various things. If we find that we are strongly in disagreement, then we generally agree to disagree on that issue and get on with our friendship. But if they are open to alternative opinions, then I'm happy to give mine, and listen to theirs, and perhaps find some middle ground. When it comes to romance, though, it's a little different. Such differences in a romantic relationship can sometimes be a wedge that drives 2 people apart. So in at least some areas, it's important to me that I find someone who is like-minded. In terms of the specific example you mentioned, certainly I don't mind making friends with someone who promotes Quebec separatism, even though I'm not in favour of it. "Music is a universal language, spoken and understood by all"   
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5/4/2008 9:16 pm |
whiteminke ? 哼! 那个跳梁小丑？自以为知道西藏人民, 好笑得很, 驳都懒得驳, 同他玩玩文字游戏, 练练英语, 足矣! 看你的写, 很开心.支持!你的英语越来越好,高兴!
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5/4/2008 9:30 pm |
Again , read good article , paste here share with you , it seemed that we don't so despair of the generation of after 80s ? This the bright hope for our country ? 我们这一代的五四宣言 2008年05月04日 14:22人民网强国论坛 “奥运——这一代的成人仪式”系列网评之一 曾经以为历史的舞台很高很高，我们今天却站了上来！ 感谢奥运，感谢圣火，感谢全世界给我们加油和鼓励的人们。同时，我们也要感谢那些对中国的崛起心存疑惧和敌视的人，感谢所有傲慢与偏见、遏制和打压、误解和谩骂。风，让火燃得更旺；雨，将浊气一扫而空。风雨中，我们登上舞台，宣读这一代中国青年的五四宣言。 在许多人眼里，我们曾经是那样的脆弱、幼稚、孤独、另类甚至卑微。 在许多人眼里，我们“独生子女”“小皇帝”，从小娇生惯养、我行我素，不懂得兄弟姐妹的友爱，不懂得对父辈心怀感恩；我们被“素质教育”折磨得死去活来，沉迷网络游戏，缺乏传统文化修养，更不要说什么远大理想。 在许多人眼里，我们在不该早熟的时候早熟，在需要成熟的时候懵懵懂懂，超女快男是我们的标签，我们“既缺乏50后与祖国共命运的伟大情怀，也缺乏60后追求精神解放的觉悟，同样缺乏70后善于自省的精神”…… 我们读小学时，读大学不要钱； 我们读大学时，读小学不要钱。 我们没能工作的时候，工作是分配的； 我们可以工作的时候，撞得头破血流才勉强找份饿不死人的工作。 我们不能挣钱的时候，房子是分配的； 我们能挣钱的时候，却发现房子已经买不起了。 我们没有进入股市的时候，傻瓜都在赚钱； 我们兴冲冲地闯进去的时候，才发现自己成了傻瓜…… 然而，就是我们这群人，从一地鸡毛的琐碎生活里抬起头来，在祖国最需要的时候挺身而出，发出震撼世界的呐喊！ 卡弗蒂们巴不得我们都是“愤青”，可相当遗憾，我们不是。我们学过历史，我们不是“造反派”；我们痛恨暴力，所以才对拉萨狂暴的“藏独”深恶痛绝；我们珍视和平，我们深信，再给中国一代人和平发展的时间，我们将对人类做出更大的贡献。 卡弗蒂们巴不得我们都是暴民和匪徒，可相当遗憾，他们的诅咒永远只是诅咒。既然有分辨虎照、羚羊照的眼力，我们就不会分不清善恶和是非；既然有捍卫火炬的勇气和信心，我们就有“放过法国人宽恕西方人”的宽容和大度；既然有在巴黎共和国广场慷慨陈词的雄辩口才，我们为什么要学卡弗蒂，令人不齿地攻讦和谩骂？抵制？你是说抵制吗？那些人可以用“抵制奥运”来威胁我们，我们为什么就不能以牙还牙、吓唬他们一下？（如果让家乐福受惊了，我们在此深表歉意——等风波过去，我们会去采购很多很多）哈哈！ 总结圣火风波，必须承认，我们对江湖的险恶估计不足。我们曾理所当然地认为，一个13亿人口的国家走向繁荣，在任何人眼里都是世界之福，所有人都会乐见一个古老民族的复兴，分享我们凤凰浴火的喜悦。然而，剧情跳出了我们温情、善意、阳光灿烂的剧本，以一种复杂得多的章节展开。“同一个世界，同一个梦想”，暂时还只是一个梦想。 的确，西方对中国存在误解和偏见。但坦诚地讲，我们对西方文明的理解同样可能失之肤浅。这种肤浅，让我们容易将对方的理念和行为，局部与整体，政府、传媒与民意混为一谈，迷失其间；这种肤浅，让我们往往误把特定的游戏规则视作普世价值，把竞争中的利益权衡视作文明冲突，时而艳羡邻人的富贵高雅，渴望倾盖相交，时而又高筑藩篱，鸣鼓而攻。 从历史的角度，中华文明的宽广深厚，足以令人自豪；从现实的角度，在国际格局的风云变幻中，我们还是名副其实的NewComer。30年改革开放，我们以经济的腾飞换来了跻身VIP俱乐部的门票，但在很多方面，我们远没有完全做好准备…… 2008年的五四，中国青年无可回避地面对新的世界、新的使命。 1919年五四的北京街头，陈独秀、李大钊、傅斯年们高举双臂，接受现代文明的洗礼。那一年，他们中的大多数人，正是我们这个年龄。 从那时开始，1935年一二·九运动，1976年四·五运动，1981年大学生喊出“团结起来、振兴中华”的时代最强音，1999年抗议北约轰炸我驻南使馆……青年爱国大潮引领历史的脉动，将积贫积弱的中国推上自强之路。 今天，这一浪由这一代人掀起，我们站在历史的潮头！ 向左走还是向右走？全世界都在注视我们。我们的回答是：向前走！ 2008年8月的北京，未必一切都尽如人意，但青年志愿者的微笑是真诚的；北京“的哥”英语可能还有些磕巴，但我们沟通的愿望是那样的强烈。 所有友善、理性、有正义感的朋友，我们都欢迎——我们之间的合作，是这个世界和谐运转的基础；所有跟我们红过脸、打过架的，我们也都欢迎——历史正翻开新的一页，未来世界的命运，取决于今天我们彼此的意愿和交流的深度。 “一个大国，绝不可能指望只在掌声中前进”。无论“挡在中国与世界之间的这堵墙”有多厚重，我们都奋力向前，义无反顾。 今天，我们站上历史的舞台，秉承前辈的血脉，承载世界的目光，历史正倾听这一代人的回答！
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5/5/2008 8:52 pm |
sayhelltouu 看了你的文章我哭了 因为自豪 因为放心
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5/5/2008 9:59 pm |
只有一个中国，这是理性的选择
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5/5/2008 11:21 pm |
there won't be any problem if i would make friends with such a person. what matters is if that person is also willing to have me as a friend. it will be a healthy exchange of opinions.
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5/6/2008 2:57 am |
Sayu, 你转的这篇文章写得真好。作者胸襟真广阔。 我只想到那些西方人支持藏独，就是分裂中国。如果西藏分裂出去，那样中国可能就会陷入内战，政局不稳定，中国人会互相残杀。就算不打仗，中国经济也很可能会因此而大倒退。现在不少人时常抱怨物价上涨，日子不好过。如果中国经济大倒退，人们生活就会更困苦。更多人会死于饥饿、疾病等。人们平均寿命会下降。总之，中国很可能会因分裂而变得更贫穷落后。这可能正是一些西方人所乐于看到的。 所以，支持藏独的人在我眼里就跟支持侵略中国一样。这种人就像南郭先生故事里的豺狼一样。对豺狼是没有道理好讲的，要么被它吃掉，要么打死它。对敌人仁慈宽容就是对自己残忍。 不过，看了你的文章，我觉得放心许多了。 现在我多了一个要努力工作的动力了。只要中国更强大，这才是对支持藏独等人的最大打击。
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5/6/2008 3:08 am |
sayhelltouu, 将你的文章借用转载一下。望你不要介意。谢啦！ Swallow your pride and turn a day of frustration into a day of enlightenment!
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5/6/2008 7:26 am |
Oasis ,KQRBNP , You two are true backbone Chinese , You are righteous, brave and guileless , full of passional love to our own country , very loyal to HER as well. i am prond of you ! My all of comments just want to support to you , even seemed to be over emotional that not my style before , but it is truly feeling spout out . because, i am Chinese . too. KQ , very glad you like this acticle , and willing to post in your blog , so good , as your blog land is really great , many chinese people are your fans . hope more Chinese read it and be proud of being Chinese ! 你俩是真正有脊梁的中国人 ,你俩的正义,正直和勇敢, 对祖国的忠诚和激情溢于言表, 我为你们感到自豪! MAXAM22 ,是的,我们在分享, 为我们是中国人而自豪.
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5/6/2008 3:58 pm |
具体情况具体分析--这是我的选项. 不过原则立场如果有根本分歧的话,那是不可能当朋友的.
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5/8/2008 3:29 am |
Sayu, 我很感谢你的支持。 这次和高人辩论过招有什么心得吗？首先，他们的年龄可能是接近我们的两倍，斗争经验丰富。加上来自美加等国，英语运用得心应手。我想在西方国家的教育里可能会包含许多课堂辩论等，从而使得他们辩论基础扎实，舌利如剑。他们的无中生有、笑里藏刀等招数，令人防不胜防，辩也不是，不辩也不是。有时候甚至挨了招还懵然不知。 因此，如果事先没有知己知彼，最好不要贸然出招，否则很可能惨败。 虽然骂他们起不了什么作用，不过我学到了不少东西，也接受了一次磨练和教训。 还是做些有益、有意义、能令自己高兴的事吧。
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5/8/2008 4:01 pm |
Sayu, 我很感谢你的支持。 这次和高人辩论过招有什么心得吗？首先，他们的年龄可能是接近我们的两倍，斗争经验丰富。加上来自美加等国，英语运用得心应手。我想在西方国家的教育里可能会包含许多课堂辩论等，从而使得他们辩论基础扎实，舌利如剑。他们的无中生有、笑里藏刀等招数，令人防不胜防，辩也不是，不辩也不是。有时候甚至挨了招还懵然不知。 因此，如果事先没有知己知彼，最好不要贸然出招，否则很可能惨败。 虽然骂他们起不了什么作用，不过我学到了不少东西，也接受了一次磨练和教训。 还是做些有益、有意义、能令自己高兴的事吧。  记住毛说过, 战略上要藐视,战术上要重视,有勇还要有谋才能战无不胜. 也为KQRBNP 鼓掌
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5/8/2008 8:19 pm |
是的 Oasis, 这个ZD 小丑非同小可, 非常阴险,奸狡, 文字刻薄老辣, 小心中招. 此次较量, 学到很多, 正如那个帖子所陈. 而且我发现, 他们欺善怕恶, 你硬他就软. 现在他已感到心寒了, 证明反击有效. 一定要注意文字, 免被抓鸡脚. 如果他真的软了, 放他一码. 无问题, 总之, 见招拆招. 当练兵场吧 By the way , i have no more time stay here , bank on you , i am always with you , as long as being needed
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5/9/2008 3:07 pm |
I think it depends on the situation. We have a friend that many of our other friends can not stand. One day someone said to me, why do you keep company with that type of person, why do you even talk with him? I said, for one thing, i like him. I know he can be an egotistical jerk sometimes, but if i got rid of all my friends with things i did not like about them i would end up with no friends. I don't believe in being friends, at least not close friends, with just anybody. I think it is good to be "reasonably" friendly and respectful to all people and then choose your friends carefully.
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 5/11/2008 2:36 am |
达赖多次在公共场合表明，他不希望西藏从中国独立出去。 所以，中国人所抗议的藏独让很多西方人有点摸不着头脑。
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5/11/2008 4:20 am |
人性既是如此，人人们站在不同的立场，不同的角度，看问题的视野和思想主旨肯定也会大相径庭，我们应该是批评、指责对方吗？ 我个人认为（希望可以和大家共同探讨）：我们应该包容不同的人；不同的视角；不同的观点存在，而不是只是大众化统一的呼声！我们都相信集思广益的力量，我们也应该提纲携领、求同存异，如大海纳百川而归一一般，不应该以自己的立脚点为中心，希望一切都按照此种规律发展，最终挂一而漏万。 我想这才是心胸；这才是大家精神！ 我说的也很片面，还有很多未尽之言，请大家斧正。 谢谢！
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5/13/2008 12:03 am |
应该允许不同的人有不同的意见,这是个人的权利. 不说话的人,别人永远也不知道他在想什么,哪怕他做的再漂亮. 政治问题是个大话题,不应该成为朋友间的隔阂,也不是我们普通老百姓能说明白的,所以娱乐娱乐就好了.
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5/14/2008 6:14 pm |
I dont think this is a problem for me. I can see how this can tear a friendship apart or bring it closer together it depends on the people. For me, I think its nice to have another point of view on something and i would enjoy discussing the subject with my friend. It wouldnt hurt our friendship because we would also have other things to talk about besides that...
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5/14/2008 7:41 pm |
I'm interested to know whether anyone can make friends with terrorists, racists, murderers, rapists, liars and so on. I cannot make friends with those who have very different or even opposed standpoints. For instance, if someone considers racism is good, then I will certainly not make friends with him or her.
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 5/18/2008 10:31 am |
达赖多次在公共场合表明，他不希望西藏从中国独立出去。因为西藏是个穷地方，要不是共产党帮他们开山修公路，修铁路,我看西藏现在像外蒙古那样穷，达赖就是害怕西藏好像外蒙古的下场，看看现在的内蒙古，生活比外蒙古好很多，那些外国人都不是好东西，看看这次地震，他们有帮过什么。
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5/19/2008 5:12 am |
Glad to see you are still working on knowledge and understanding, Oasis. I was also glad to see that, for once, my vote belongs with the majority.  Yes, it depends on the situations, on the subject of contradiction.Definitely, there are people with whom I could never get along. I welcome different opinions though, but only when they can be justified by sound reasoning. There's one exception: I will never reject anybody for their religious or political beliefs. History has shown us that opposite viewpoints will always have to co-exist, and if we are not tolerant, that will lead to religious and/or civil wars. We've had enough of that. The main distinction to be made is between opinions and beliefs: an opinion may change; a belief will not change because it is impervious to logic. Let me take the hot example of Tibet. It is true that the Tibetans have their own history and culture, distinct from those in Beijing. But I suppose that every Chinese province has its own history and culture, more or less distinct from those in Beijing too. So the cultural and historical differences are not sufficient in themselves. In France, in Spain, in Great Britain, regions have sought their independence as stand-alone states, and central governments have always reacted using police or military force (think for instance of the long war in Northern Ireland between the pro-English Protestants and the pro-independence Catholics). That is fact. The central government in China reacts exactly as all its European counterparts have always reacted, and the Westerners have no lessons to give. That's why I won't bother to make my own opinion about the status of Tibet. As a rule I disapprove of theocracies -- one Dalai Lama may be a good head of state, another one may be bad, and the history of the 14 Dalai Lamas of Tibet proves it. Take another example: in the Muslim world, wherever the strict Koranic rules -- often misinterpreted -- have been applied, things have gotten worse. The Church and the state should be two distinct entities. Let the Dalai Lama look after the spiritual needs of his followers and the civilians after the practical management of the country.
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5/19/2008 11:16 pm |
Davinci, I read your comment with mingled feelings. Your comment tells me that peace is impossible. There will be always wars because people are not tolerant about different religious and political viewpoints. History has told us about that. Why am I not tolerant? It's simply because of my personal selfishness: I seek the most interest for myself based on some principles. Any harm to my own interest can be unacceptable. Friendship is built based on mutual benefit. So are partnership and family. I hope you are not frustrated after reading this plain truth, such is human nature. After all, inside every clothes, there's an animal. Now the problem is some people attempt to separate Tibet from China and I believe it would be a great harm to my own interest although I don't think their attempt will succeed. I'm intolerant of this. No way I can make friends with these people. But I also don't want wars because wars would be much greater harm to my own interest. So you can see I am a selfish person despite I donate money to people who need it because I feel sympathetic to them. Maybe this is the only difference between humans and other animals. Besides, it's perhaps because Chinese culture is different from Western culture. I prefer unity. I hope to live in peace, concord and union. But some Westerners seem to prefer separation. For instance, the US was separated from Britain. Europe consists of countless small countries. Is it one of the reasons why some Westerners don't mind a separation while I find it unbearable? But now Europe has become a union against the US. It's because, as I mentioned above, partnership is built based on mutual benefit. When people have common interests, they will be likely united together to fight against the threats of their common interests. By the way, some people told me that they had changed their beliefs. If one day I saw God, I would probably change my belief. Would you?
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5/20/2008 3:21 am |
Again , read good article , paste here share with you , it seemed that we don't so despair of the generation of after 80s ? This the bright hope for our country ? 我们这一代的五四宣言 2008年05月04日 14:22人民网强国论坛 “奥运——这一代的成人仪式”系列网评之一 曾经以为历史的舞台很高很高，我们今天却站了上来！ 感谢奥运，感谢圣火，感谢全世界给我们加油和鼓励的人们。同时，我们也要感谢那些对中国的崛起心存疑惧和敌视的人，感谢所有傲慢与偏见、遏制和打压、误解和谩骂。风，让火燃得更旺；雨，将浊气一扫而空。风雨中，我们登上舞台，宣读这一代中国青年的五四宣言。 在许多人眼里，我们曾经是那样的脆弱、幼稚、孤独、另类甚至卑微。 在许多人眼里，我们“独生子女”“小皇帝”，从小娇生惯养、我行我素，不懂得兄弟姐妹的友爱，不懂得对父辈心怀感恩；我们被“素质教育”折磨得死去活来，沉迷网络游戏，缺乏传统文化修养，更不要说什么远大理想。 在许多人眼里，我们在不该早熟的时候早熟，在需要成熟的时候懵懵懂懂，超女快男是我们的标签，我们“既缺乏50后与祖国共命运的伟大情怀，也缺乏60后追求精神解放的觉悟，同样缺乏70后善于自省的精神”…… 我们读小学时，读大学不要钱； 我们读大学时，读小学不要钱。 我们没能工作的时候，工作是分配的； 我们可以工作的时候，撞得头破血流才勉强找份饿不死人的工作。 我们不能挣钱的时候，房子是分配的； 我们能挣钱的时候，却发现房子已经买不起了。 我们没有进入股市的时候，傻瓜都在赚钱； 我们兴冲冲地闯进去的时候，才发现自己成了傻瓜…… 然而，就是我们这群人，从一地鸡毛的琐碎生活里抬起头来，在祖国最需要的时候挺身而出，发出震撼世界的呐喊！ 卡弗蒂们巴不得我们都是“愤青”，可相当遗憾，我们不是。我们学过历史，我们不是“造反派”；我们痛恨暴力，所以才对拉萨狂暴的“藏独”深恶痛绝；我们珍视和平，我们深信，再给中国一代人和平发展的时间，我们将对人类做出更大的贡献。 卡弗蒂们巴不得我们都是暴民和匪徒，可相当遗憾，他们的诅咒永远只是诅咒。既然有分辨虎照、羚羊照的眼力，我们就不会分不清善恶和是非；既然有捍卫火炬的勇气和信心，我们就有“放过法国人宽恕西方人”的宽容和大度；既然有在巴黎共和国广场慷慨陈词的雄辩口才，我们为什么要学卡弗蒂，令人不齿地攻讦和谩骂？抵制？你是说抵制吗？那些人可以用“抵制奥运”来威胁我们，我们为什么就不能以牙还牙、吓唬他们一下？（如果让家乐福受惊了，我们在此深表歉意——等风波过去，我们会去采购很多很多）哈哈！ 总结圣火风波，必须承认，我们对江湖的险恶估计不足。我们曾理所当然地认为，一个13亿人口的国家走向繁荣，在任何人眼里都是世界之福，所有人都会乐见一个古老民族的复兴，分享我们凤凰浴火的喜悦。然而，剧情跳出了我们温情、善意、阳光灿烂的剧本，以一种复杂得多的章节展开。“同一个世界，同一个梦想”，暂时还只是一个梦想。 的确，西方对中国存在误解和偏见。但坦诚地讲，我们对西方文明的理解同样可能失之肤浅。这种肤浅，让我们容易将对方的理念和行为，局部与整体，政府、传媒与民意混为一谈，迷失其间；这种肤浅，让我们往往误把特定的游戏规则视作普世价值，把竞争中的利益权衡视作文明冲突，时而艳羡邻人的富贵高雅，渴望倾盖相交，时而又高筑藩篱，鸣鼓而攻。 从历史的角度，中华文明的宽广深厚，足以令人自豪；从现实的角度，在国际格局的风云变幻中，我们还是名副其实的NewComer。30年改革开放，我们以经济的腾飞换来了跻身VIP俱乐部的门票，但在很多方面，我们远没有完全做好准备…… 2008年的五四，中国青年无可回避地面对新的世界、新的使命。 1919年五四的北京街头，陈独秀、李大钊、傅斯年们高举双臂，接受现代文明的洗礼。那一年，他们中的大多数人，正是我们这个年龄。 从那时开始，1935年一二·九运动，1976年四·五运动，1981年大学生喊出“团结起来、振兴中华”的时代最强音，1999年抗议北约轰炸我驻南使馆……青年爱国大潮引领历史的脉动，将积贫积弱的中国推上自强之路。 今天，这一浪由这一代人掀起，我们站在历史的潮头！ 向左走还是向右走？全世界都在注视我们。我们的回答是：向前走！ 2008年8月的北京，未必一切都尽如人意，但青年志愿者的微笑是真诚的；北京“的哥”英语可能还有些磕巴，但我们沟通的愿望是那样的强烈。 所有友善、理性、有正义感的朋友，我们都欢迎——我们之间的合作，是这个世界和谐运转的基础；所有跟我们红过脸、打过架的，我们也都欢迎——历史正翻开新的一页，未来世界的命运，取决于今天我们彼此的意愿和交流的深度。 “一个大国，绝不可能指望只在掌声中前进”。无论“挡在中国与世界之间的这堵墙”有多厚重，我们都奋力向前，义无反顾。 今天，我们站上历史的舞台，秉承前辈的血脉，承载世界的目光，历史正倾听这一代人的回答！ 心情风景
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5/21/2008 5:43 am |
Oasis, you wrote: "Now the problem is some people attempt to separate Tibet from China and I believe it would be a great harm to my own interest" Can I humbly ask you how the political separation of Tibet would arm you personally?? There is one thing that I don't like in people... that is, if they put nationalistic love, before love for another person! And I found that's too often the case with the Chinese people I talked to (mind you, not just them OK)... What is a nation? A nation is an abstract entity made of people and by people. That is, a nation is: "people". But no group of people can praise itself for being free of sin... therefore everyone, when refering to the "nation", should actually step back, and become very humble about it... not proud! But that's just my view...  the flying squirrel strikes back       
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5/21/2008 7:40 am |
我直接参加了"3\14"的处置行动,面对打不还手骂不还口的部属,我们的心在流泪,但我们还是一直在教育他们,坚决执行上级的指示和决定,任务完成后,我们调防执行另一个任务,直接面对穷凶极恶的闹事份子,想想牺牲的战友和公安干警,我们时刻控制着自己的情绪,压制自己的愤怒，我们要怎么办，国家利益高于一切，让法律来惩办他们吧！让那些为了国家利益而牺牲的烈士早日安息！军人生来为战胜不是一句口号，是一个誓言一个责任． 军人生来为战胜
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5/21/2008 9:15 pm |
Ignim, Long time no see. What's putting nationalistic love, before love for another person? Can you tell me some specific examples? You can read some moving stories happened during the Sichuan earthquake catastrophe. There are countless moving stories and you can find them. Do you think these Chinese put nationalistic love before love for another person? I don't know. But I believe they loved or love other people. I hope some hard-working Western cersorships haven't brainwashed you too much. I did read that some informative Westerners didn't know this earthquake at all. I also hope you understand that it's impossible for me to explain everything very clear in some posts. And there is something I don't want to explain too much here.
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5/22/2008 12:06 am |
Oasis... "What's putting nationalistic love, before love for another person? Can you tell me some specific examples?" YOU are...  ...by saying: "I hope some hard-working Western cersorships..." you immediatly imply that Chinese censorship (and believe me, it does exist!) is better than western censorship as you call it... You let your nationalistic pride influence your judgement of my view of the situation! Hence you put your nationalistic pride before your "love" for me! I do NOT believe everything I see in the news... I always try to keep a critical eye, and see whether different sources give the same version of the facts... If they don't, then you CAN NOT believe either of them... and if you believe a priore the one given to you by your government, then you are bound to have been influenced in some way or another... If people did not know about the earthquake, it does not mean that news were censored, it just mean that they were too lazy (or stupid) to get informed... But now YOU tell me... how many people in China knew (or cared) about the cyclone in Burma, and of the frustrating efforts of aid agencies and helpers, that are refused entry into the contry by the Burmese military regime? Did you donate for the victims of the earthquake? Good... Did you donate for the victims of the cyclone? ... We are all humans after all... Are Chinese putting the same effort into helping their own fellow countrymen, as they are helping the Burmese? That's when nationalistic love comes into play... PS: You did not reply to my question above... ie: Can I humbly ask you how the political separation of Tibet would arm you personally?? the flying squirrel strikes back
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5/22/2008 3:49 am |
Ignim, You don't need to worry because I don't put my nationalistic pride before my "love" for you. I didn't imply that. So your analysis is orthogonal to the reality. I don't think it's nationalistic love comes into play. I think it's unreasonable that you compare them. I disagree that it means I care them less if I donate less money and put less effort to the Burmese. I very much dislike people using this way to compare others' love or care. How would it arm me? I don't know. Why did you ask this question?
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5/26/2008 10:50 am |
yonganzl, just because whitemonkey doesnt share the same opinion as you doesnt mean he does not have a right to his opinion. Most people dont want to see china split or harmed in anyway. It's wrong to judge all westerners because you dont happen to like one of them. You wouldnt want westerners to judge all 1.3 billion chinese people because they didnt happen to like one of them. In order to get along with others you dont have to agree with what they are saying but you have to let them have their opinion. If you want to debate with them thats fine but to attack them in a language they cant understand its really cowardly in my opinion....
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5/26/2008 4:48 pm |
Oasis, we are obviously different... I believe in 'ACTION', not in 'WORDS'... people can say as many nice things as they want, but if they don't follow what they say by actually 'DOING' it, well... then... I am sorry, but I find it hard to believe their true intensions... About my question: In a previous exchange with Dav, YOU wrote: "Now the problem is some people attempt to separate Tibet from China and I believe it would be a great harm to my own interest" It's your words... I just wanted to know what you meant... simple question... mintyfresh, whitemonkey? I just watched a BBC documentary on Yunnan. In the jungle there, lives the Yunnan Golden Monkey. It is one of the few monkey species that can withstand a snowy winter. They were showing images of these animals up in the trees during a heavy snowfall... very cute. Is that what you meant by "whitemonkey"? the flying squirrel strikes back
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5/26/2008 7:45 pm |
Mintyfresh, You're so right. What you said is a very good aphorism to your own government and some Western media and some Westerners who attack other countries and people as if they are weak and cowardly. "Perhaps the most egregious case of Western hypocrisy lies in its attacks on Chinese policy in Africa." Ignim, What's "true intensions"? Do you mean "true intentions"? I don't think it's a matter of actions and words. Like Mintyfresh, you don't seem to have a clue. What I meant is I'm against any separations of China. If anyone wants to separate China, no way I will make friends with him or her. I've explained at least two reasons. But actually I don't need any reasons. Do you still not understand? By the way, I found it funny when I read your understanding of what Mintyfresh meant by whitemonkey. Are you joking? I'm afraid you have misunderstood Mintyfresh's meaning. Whitemonkey is actually a man whose handle is whiteminkey, not a monkey. But of course, he has possibly evolved from the white monkey.
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5/26/2008 9:40 pm |
Oasis, Political discussions are much like religious discussions... mind you, I might not be supportive of your government's ideology, but neither I am of the western governments ideologies... and that's what I meant by "words" and "actions"... much too often politicians just speak... and the words get carried away in the wind... What I would like, is to see some self criticism... None of either systems makes EVERYBODY happy, therefore, none of them should be regarded as highly righteous... If you believe that China should remain one and united, that is fine with me, you have your reasons, I am not going to try and change your mind. It would be useful though, if you just for once, tried the exercise of asking yourself why there are people with a different opinion... try to put yourself in their shoes... try to see their point of view... be critical of your own belief. Believe me, it is not an easy exercise, but after doing it, you will have a much better understanding of the reality and a broader view of the world... But it is always up to you of course... people are free to believe whatever they want. I was joking, but I really watched the documentary on Yunnan... Very beautiful countryside. the flying squirrel strikes back
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5/26/2008 10:00 pm |
lol minkey monkey whatever!
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5/27/2008 12:26 am |
Ignim, One of the misunderstandings is some people think I'm talking about politics, but I don't think I am. Of course, you may find it a little bit relative. What I am talking about is the issue of different standpoints. What I'm against are some people who have different values or standpoints from me. I understand there are differences between different people. But that does not mean I will tolerate all of them. I agree with the rest of what you said. I often remind me of that. I have tried to put myself in your and Davinci's and other Westerners' shoes. I understand that the great differences between us can cause different opinions. Yunnan is very beautiful countryside. But when you get there, you may feel uncomfortable. Do you know it's once full of dangerous malaria and was seen as ghosts' territory? Have you heard of the frightening old saying that if one goes there, he should first buy himself a coffin because he'll probably die there? That's the difference between imagination and reality. I feel we still don't know and understand each other too much. I hope foreigners and the Chinese can understand each other further and find win-win solutions. Hopefully, one world one dream is not just a dream. "It is in everyone's interests, both the Chinese and the rest of the planet, to encourage China to achieve further economic growth ..." And if there were separations in China, it could lead to chaos or wars in China and elsewhere. "For the global economy and the global community, this would be quite simply catastrophic."
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5/27/2008 4:36 am |
Oasis, As Dav wrote earlier, intollerance and ignorance is what leads to hatred and wars. I know that it is hard to tollerate many things we see around us... me too... I sometimes find some things quite annoying... but most of all, I find ignorance and arrogance very annoying... Nevertheless, we should still do our best... I will be honest with you. I just read in the magazine the article about Tibet, and I am very disappointed of your responses. I read that from a neutral standpoint, and of all the post, yours were those filled with most hatred and ignorance. I do not care who was right or who was wrong, but you were not arguing objectively at all, you were merely insulting other users (and I understand now where the whitemonkey above comes from). Remember, you can argue as long as you want, making good points to support your opinion, but once you start using bad words, then you loose your rights... And if you see that you can not have a quiet argument with someone because they have a different standpoint from yours, then leave the conversation. Do not fill the need to change their mind. You will never change his/her mind, hence arguing is completely useless... There will always be people like that, and your effort will be wasted. I am telling you this because I thought you were a nice and smart guy. You can now take my words and do whatever you want with them. I don't see why China should not achieve further economic growth. What cencerns me is that the growth should be equally distributed across the country and the population, and from what I saw (AND I SAW THAT WITH MY EYES IN THE COUNTRYSIDE OF JIANXI, I AM NOT BASING IT ON SOMEONE ELSE'S ACCOUNT OR PROPAGANDA), this hasn't happend so far. If that will not happen, then further clashes WITHIN China will become inevitable. There are many problems facing China and the world, and I think that for both Chinese and Westerners to share more and be less ignorantly proud of their own countries or etnic groups, would advantage everyone... But anyway, that will never happen... ignorance will always win... Good luck! the flying squirrel strikes back
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5/27/2008 8:17 am |
Ignim, May i ask you some question ? Let us suppose the scenario like that ----- You have very loving relationship with your girl friend and you make consensus on most of things , of course, you also disagree with each other about some issues One day , you two are arguing one of them , debating badly ,even can't help getting bit mad trying to defend oneself , even more , with over emotional words carelessly ,then both feel some hurt from other side ..... At this moment , a Guy involved in your quarrel , He , immediately, was by your girl 's side and just want to be against you without needing any logic reason. he pour oil on the flames again and again , as he just want to make mischief on your relationship , finally , he provoked your girl ditch you .... Ok, would you mind telling me what is your answer to my questions below ---- ? 1, What is your real feeling about this Guy ? what reaction you would take in such situation ? 2 In such situation, come to the third party who want to show himself being impartiality to that Guy and you two , said that everyone have right to express their viewpoint , Again , how do you feel about this third party ? what reaction you take to him ? Looking forward to hearing from you , then . may be more .....
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5/27/2008 6:48 pm |
Ignim, May i ask you some question ? Let us suppose the scenario like that ----- You have very loving relationship with your girl friend and you make consensus on most of things , of course, you also disagree with each other about some issues One day , you two are arguing one of them , debating badly ,even can't help getting bit mad trying to defend oneself , even more , with over emotional words carelessly ,then both feel some hurt from other side ..... At this moment , a Guy involved in your quarrel , He , immediately, was by your girl 's side and just want to be against you without needing any logic reason. he pour oil on the flames again and again , as he just want to make mischief on your relationship , finally , he provoked your girl ditch you .... Ok, would you mind telling me what is your answer to my questions below ---- ? 1, What is your real feeling about this Guy ? what reaction you would take in such situation ? 2 In such situation, come to the third party who want to show himself being impartiality to that Guy and you two , said that everyone have right to express their viewpoint , Again , how do you feel about this third party ? what reaction you take to him ? Looking forward to hearing from you , then . may be more ..... First point I'd make: I had few arguments with girls I held in a warm position in my heart, and NEVER I would have thought of using, as you call them, "overemotional words". As I wrote above to Oasis, once you start using "words", you loose your rights... 1, It is quite a challenging situation you drew above. I'd would seriously start to think about the relationship between the guy, and the girl. If we are discussing (or agruing) about something between the two of us (me and the girl), I don't see why the guy should get involved. If he does, just to "pour oil on the flames", and the girl accept his support without thinking objectively, at first I'll probably try to get rid of him (with words, not force). If the girl is happy with the guy just supporting her without "needing any logic reason", then I'd better go and look for another girl. I call that "treason". I don't need such a girl. The sooner we get over and done, the best. Moreover, I'd be very suspicious of that "without logic reason". NOTHING happens without a reason, and even if at first it might not appear logic, it does not mean that it is not a reason. I'd really start questioning the girl's loyalty to me! I might sound a bit cynical, but hey, I can't force the girl to stay with me. Everyone is free to make their own choices. You can bring a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. 2, The 'third party' is the wisest of all, 'being impartial' he can look at things objectively. Everyone has the right to express their viewpoint, I agree. I wouldn't feel anything special towards him. I might state my reasons to him, just to make me feel better... it's always good to complain with someone totally unrelated, and who can't change things around... I would probably hold his opinion in high regard, as he looks at the situation impartially, he might be able to give me some insightful comments, on the girl, the guy, and myself. Life is too short to spend it chasing a person that does not love you. As i said to Oasis above, I believe in actions, not words. If the girl says she loves me, but then runs off with another guy... WOW... tell me something else I don't know... the flying squirrel strikes back
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5/27/2008 11:16 pm |
Ignim, I understand your good intention. Please believe me that my intention is also good. I just want to tell you that your analysis of me is wrong again. Your comment tells me you sometimes couldn't distinguish right and wrong or your right and wrong are very different from mine in this respect. You mentioned ignorance. I believe there're also many Chinese are ignorant about the West. Me too. I know little about the West. You can say I am very annoying but I don't think I am arrogant. I feel some foreigners ( often Westerners ) here are rather ignorant about China, by what they wrote. However, this is acceptable to me. The problem is quite often their posts somehow impress me that they are know-it-all and they're even more expert in anything about China than I am, but they are not. Their weak arguments won’t bear examination. I find it really annoying. I didn't insult anyone or said any bad words. Instead, I was insulted and abused by those hypocrites who attempted to separate China. They also insulted and abused China and the Chinese. I just sent the insults back to them. They are just as the gang under the Hitler-like Dalai Lama who killed innocent civilians. Just like terrorists or fascists. I've never said I am a nice or smart guy. I am just doing what I think is right: fighting back the evil people. I won't leave. I will stand up to them. When you see someone is scamming, won't you do something, such as informing your friends? What you saw in Jianxi was most probably true but not necessarily all-sided. So is what I've seen. I've been living in China for about 30 years and I've also seen and experienced a lot of things. What I've seen is more people enjoy better standard of living and freedom in China. People are more united and civilized. China is more powerful. I believe China has chosen the right way and is heading for the correct direction. I'm very confident of China's future and my future. You've won this debate.
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5/28/2008 12:28 am |
I think political opinions should not affect your friendship. People with different standpouints can still be friends as long as u respect each other's opinions.
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5/28/2008 1:20 am |
Oasis, the debate is far from over, and it will probably never be. But as you wish, let's leave it there as it is. the flying squirrel strikes back
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5/28/2008 9:22 am |
hehe... hello sayhelltouu, you may ask me as many questions as you wish... First point I'd make: I had few arguments with girls I held in a warm position in my heart, and NEVER I would have thought of using, as you call them, "overemotional words". As I wrote above to Oasis, once you start using "words", you loose your rights... 1, It is quite a challenging situation you drew above. I'd would seriously start to think about the relationship between the guy, and the girl. If we are discussing (or agruing) about something between the two of us (me and the girl), I don't see why the guy should get involved. If he does, just to "pour oil on the flames", and the girl accept his support without thinking objectively, at first I'll probably try to get rid of him (with words, not force). If the girl is happy with the guy just supporting her without "needing any logic reason", then I'd better go and look for another girl. I call that "treason". I don't need such a girl. The sooner we get over and done, the best. Moreover, I'd be very suspicious of that "without logic reason". NOTHING happens without a reason, and even if at first it might not appear logic, it does not mean that it is not a reason. I'd really start questioning the girl's loyalty to me! I might sound a bit cynical, but hey, I can't force the girl to stay with me. Everyone is free to make their own choices. You can bring a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. 2, The 'third party' is the wisest of all, 'being impartial' he can look at things objectively. Everyone has the right to express their viewpoint, I agree. I wouldn't feel anything special towards him. I might state my reasons to him, just to make me feel better... it's always good to complain with someone totally unrelated, and who can't change things around... I would probably hold his opinion in high regard, as he looks at the situation impartially, he might be able to give me some insightful comments, on the girl, the guy, and myself. Life is too short to spend it chasing a person that does not love you. As i said to Oasis above, I believe in actions, not words. If the girl says she loves me, but then runs off with another guy... WOW... tell me something else I don't know... But , if you were careful to read my question--- i was asking what is your real FEELING about this guy , but THINKING about . Because , i very believe that we all are just human , not only we have rational thinking , but also have emotional feeling reaction . also my question focus on the Guy ,not on the girl . although , i seemed agree with your comments on the girl . I appreciated your reaction -- " If we are discussing (or agruing) about something between the two of us (me and the girl), I don't see why the guy should get involved. If he does, just to "pour oil on the flames",.... , at first I'll probably try to get rid of him (with words, not force). It remind me of very similar case - Tibet issue , I don't see why westerners should get involved in the internal affairs of China , and just pour oil on the flames, too ? like as you , China government has been trying get rid of them ( with words but force , if they force not first) You are right again that -- " Moreover, I'd be very suspicious of that "without logic reason". NOTHING happens without a reason, and even if at first it might not appear logic, it does not mean that it is not a reason....... " Yes , when you see such guy involved in your quarrel , then just want to be against you without needing any logic reason ,and just pour oil on the flames .... Is it enough to reveal what his motivation was ? Is it obviously that his real reason is want to ruin your relationship , rob the girl from you ? ---loot a burning house ? Remind me of Tibet issue again , is very same logic of westerner get involved in this one ? About the third party , in my opinion , if he just said that " anyone have right to express their viewpoint " then pretend to be impartial , it = say nothing =pointless . because i think , any civics , at least , should have most basic social conscience based on some social moral and ethic common sense ,knowing what is right or wrong . The behavior of that guy is obviously violate human conscience -- want to ruin other's relationship , so he is a indecency guy , have done evil things , could it be he should not to be condemned by righteousness ? Thus , i dislike hypocrite and i understand those who sometimes may get over emotional based on rightous impulse , love them more than those who is real cold in heart .
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5/28/2008 6:02 pm |
Sayhelltouu, I was suspecting that this would evolve into a political debate, and as such I will not continue it. To reply to your only relevant question though, I had a girlfriend that left me to go with another guy. Not exactly in the terms you stated, but nevertheless, the result was exactly the same. I never felt anything for the guy. If you want me to say that I hated him you are far from your goal. The girl had made her choice, for me to loose my feelings on it would have been nothing but waste! Of course I cried, but that was probably due to the loss of security that a relationship gives you. And I restate what I wrote above: The 'third party' is the wisest of all, 'being impartial' he can look at things objectively...he might be able to give me some insightful comments, on the girl, the guy, and myself. Have you ever thought about it, that feeligs and emotions can actually BLIND you? You are so much into your side of the argument, that you loose objectivity. In that case, you can't actually see who is right and who is wrong, and think that you are the only right one. That's why in trials you have a judge, supposedly impartial. We all have different perceptions of life and behaviours, what for me is normal and gentle, for the girl might appear very cold-hearted, and a third party may help me see through my own perception. Ignoring the third party just demonstrate arrogance due to oneself's pride: WHAT I THINK IS RIGHT... EVERYONE ELSE IS WRONG ... yeah yeah... tell me something else that I don't know... Following emotions is never a wise way when you are in an argument... the flying squirrel strikes back
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5/28/2008 7:49 pm |
Ignim, I understand your good intention. Please believe me that my intention is also good. I just want to tell you that your analysis of me is wrong again. Your comment tells me you sometimes couldn't distinguish right and wrong or your right and wrong are very different from mine in this respect. You mentioned ignorance. I believe there're also many Chinese are ignorant about the West. Me too. I know little about the West. You can say I am very annoying but I don't think I am arrogant. I feel some foreigners ( often Westerners ) here are rather ignorant about China, by what they wrote. However, this is acceptable to me. The problem is quite often their posts somehow impress me that they are know-it-all and they're even more expert in anything about China than I am, but they are not. Their weak arguments won’t bear examination. I find it really annoying. I didn't insult anyone or said any bad words. Instead, I was insulted and abused by those hypocrites who attempted to separate China. They also insulted and abused China and the Chinese. I just sent the insults back to them. They are just as the gang under the Hitler-like Dalai Lama who killed innocent civilians. Just like terrorists or fascists. I've never said I am a nice or smart guy. I am just doing what I think is right: fighting back the evil people. I won't leave. I will stand up to them. When you see someone is scamming, won't you do something, such as informing your friends? What you saw in Jianxi was most probably true but not necessarily all-sided. So is what I've seen. I've been living in China for about 30 years and I've also seen and experienced a lot of things. What I've seen is more people enjoy better standard of living and freedom in China. People are more united and civilized. China is more powerful. I believe China has chosen the right way and is heading for the correct direction. I'm very confident of China's future and my future. You've won this debate. Talking about IGNORANCE , i am afraid , that lady named Sharon Stone , a Western celebrity , public figure , Humanitarian Award by Harvard Foundation , is just right exmple of IGNORANCE , Her clown-like performance clearly revealed a unquestionable fact that she is not only extremely ignorant of most basic scientific and political common sense , but also , unbelievably being ignorant of the bottom line of human conscience ! How ironic it was ! I am sorry to see that it seemed have quite a few of westerners are such person who is real ignorant fanfaronades , like to think themselves knowing more than real Chinese people by their own's ignorance .
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